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Jeff, I do concede your analogy is a little better than mine and a couple of others have raised the same point. For that I have two solutions: a.) That those who choose to not become a member pay a smaller service fee that would reflect the costs/benefits of collective bargaining on their behalf without charging them for other services that are for members only. This seems rather easy to implement without much hassle. -or- b.) That those who choose not to be members do not benefit from any collective agreements at all. So in the case of the recent APA raise of 2.75%, those who had previously chosen not to be members would not get the raise. As long as such things were made clear at time of employment, so that individuals could make their own informed decision, I don't see what the problem is. Well let me rephrase that, I don't see where the problem is for employees, but the APA definitely wouldn't like it if they started losing members (a.k.a. $$). I guess my basic frustration is that even though we are adults, in skilled professions, that we are not afforded the respect and responsibility to make certain decisions about how we are represented. Instead you are told that your job X means you have to join union Y and pay Z dollars. If you don't like it tough luck and anyway you should be happy because they are bargaining on your behalf. Stephen Bogdanski Network Services College of Veterinary Medicine Michigan State University >>> Jeff Quinn <[log in to unmask]> 10/7/2008 2:26 PM >>> "Could you imagine the kind of ruckus it would cause if they pulled the same thing with parking. As in you are told that you either get a parking permit for X dollars or you don't get a parking permit but still pay X dollars for parking anyway. Now most people need and do purchase parking permits, but most would also be offended that they were being forced into paying for something with no choice whatsoever." Not to feed the flames, but that is kind of a poor analogy. The reason you still have to pay the dues, even if you decide to not be a member is because you are afforded the same benefits that the union has fought and negotiated for. A better analogy would be that you still get to park in the ramp and you still pay for the privilege, but you just don't have the sticker. -Jeff