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I have to admit to getting a kick out of this latest thread. A University is and always will be a University first and foremost. A business does not grant degrees (with the exception of Subway-U ;) A University does grant degrees. If you take away the computers and behind-the-scenes paperwork/red-tape, and you take away the money changing hands, you still have people coming to a location to sit and listen and learn and argue. At the end of that journey, they are still granted a degree. The University (at least as a concept) still exists even if money does not. Its like arguing that sports is a business. You take away the ticket-holders and the concessions and the advertisements and the television and you are still left with sports. It might not still be called Michigan State University and it might still not be called the Detroit Pistons, however people will still gather and learn and people will still play basketball. This is not to say that there is no business at a University. Certainly, people with money have ideas that they want researched, and so they spend it on a certain area of study, and ideas get researched. The people with money sometimes make stipulations that they have a say in what gets reported, and I think here is where free speech may be questioned. Academic Technology Services (or the Computer Center as you may remember) is part of the University, and we certainly do act as a business because people with money found a need for a support structure. But again, you take us out of the picture and the University still exists. I think this is what all of these kind folks who "come from the corporate world" fail to understand. The University must run as a University first, and as a business second. It is difficult to maintain a business sense in a world where higher-education is the ultimate goal. Tuition is not the only place where a University (such as MSU) makes money. There are also private donations, grants from private companies, contracts from private companies, and government grants and subsidies. Of course as you mentioned there are also miscellaneous fees, and who knows what else. I appreciate your thoughts on this matter, and I'm left wondering if your rant helps me or hurts me as one of the "non-hippies" who works here (I'm not even 30 yet, and I do not wear tie-dyed anything). I think it certainly doesn't help me. But what I appreciate is that it could only be said so openly at a University where there is *free-speech*. Good luck pulling that off over at whatever company you work for... for the entire company to see. I think that's why sites like www.wikileaks.org exist. Perhaps I am not addressing whatever concerns that originally set you off, but the meat of your argument seems to be that we are a business. My whole point is that, while yes, we do have business goals, we are certainly not a business, we are a University. We are not Michigan State Incorporated, we are Michigan State University. It should stay that way for a long time after you and I are gone, provided they do not make any poor business moves ;-) Regards, ./brm