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For me (and I assume others) I never meant that I was going to upgrade. In fact I will not (not fully), but I'm also not one to criticize just because I don't see an immediate need for something. In fact I mentioned in my email that business's shouldn't upgrade right away. Gary brings some good points up. Here at Surplus Store & Recycling Center we currently use 2 touch screens and will be putting 2 more in. I'm interested to do some tests on Win 8 to see if it is worth moving those machines to Win 8 or not. I also dislike the whole no media and only downloads. If I want to back it up I need to do so by moving it to my 2 backup locations (which isn't a big deal) and burn a disc just in case. It is more time and more work for the end user. We all have different needs and concerns, I personally just dislike the blanket statements of rejection of a product before a full review and testing have been done. Also just because one person will not or cannot use it doesn't mean that the product is junk. On a different note does anyone have a Mac OS 10.6 disc I could use for testing on a few machines here? Thanks Tim Heckaman -----Original Message----- From: Hoort, Brian [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:47 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone But to get back to Nick K's spot-on point -- upgrade for what purpose? I don't buy a new car every time they come out with a new model year. Nor a new house, or a new pair of jeans until there is cause to do so. Upgrading is expensive. Very expensive. It's expensive in dollars, and more so in time -- and not just our time. Certainly we geeks get enjoyment out of playing with and learning the new technologies, but upgrading very busy people is usually a disruption without cause or gain. There has to be a reason to justify the expense. For me, regarding upgrading Windows, there is usually no ROI. Everything I've read about Win8 says that it's Win7 with The GUI Formerly Known As Metro (TM) taped on top (reminds me of Windows 3 -- ah, the memories). If that's the case, there is zero reason to upgrade on a machine lacking a touch screen, and therefore zero reason to do upgrades. New machines that come with it, fine. Mass scale deployment? Not going to happen. Just look at the comments from others here. The Enterprise is likely to ignore this new incarnation of Windows 3, and for good reason. Now, for those of you more interested in playing Angry Birds than getting some work done... there is some ROI in Win8 and I recommend it whole-heartedly. ;-) Brian Hoort -----Original Message----- From: Oscar Castaneda [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:10 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone I agree with you Josh. I deployed many Vista machines and they worked fine, as long as you understood the nuances. And speaking of nuances everything has nuances. Somebody mentioned to be running servers in some linux version. Well, since I am not an expert in linux, I find terribly frustrating to deal with some of its nuances. Many companies do not deploy new OSs not because they are afraid of the technology but because of the cost. oscar On 8/6/2012 8:44 PM, Wortz, Joshua wrote: > "Weird problems" is a phrase that I hear regularly from users. I agree that Vista was different from XP, but it was a move in the right direction. I personally deployed over 1200 dells on windows Vista. It took time to learn the nuances and understand how it worked in comparison to XP (ie User Account Control). Because it's not intuitive doesn't mean it's broken. > > I agree blind belief isn't good. That's why you should take advantage of the public RC's that Microsoft does to see what the in work product is going to be like and, as I said, test it before deploying it. > > > ________________________________________ > From: STeve Andre' [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 5:29 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone > > Um, Vista *was* something to avoid. I had many friend who abandoned > it in favor of XP after experiencing really weird problems. Vista > reeked for many people. One friend was brought to tears when of three > Vista crate- mate Dell's, one was perfect, one slightly broken and the last a disaster. > This was three identical machines using the same set of software. I > helped out on this debacle, and it convinced me that Vista wasn't > useful. MS agreed with that, too--they repeatedly said that 7 would > be better, and it is. > > Blind belief in MS isn't good. They have had ups and downs with their > line of OS's. Windows 2000 *was* more stable than XP in machine > control circumstances. I know a company that uses 8 of them on a private net. > One machine was converted to XP and died, needing a reboot about two > weeks into service. The 2k machines go for 9 months between reboots, > and only then because of shop retooling which moves them physically. > > It is not technophobia--it's experience. Win 7 does seem to be a > better OS, but it still acts weirdly--I bought three identical > machines, put the same software on them and had to rebuild one of them > because it had problems with EBS and Acrobat (for a few documents, only) with the > other two being fine. Great. > > You might be surprised at how many companies don't jump on the current > OS bandwagon... > > --STeve Andre' > > > On 08/06/12 17:01, Wortz, Joshua wrote: >> I'm really amazed at the amount of technophobes among the Network Administrators Group. It's still Windows, it still uses sysprep, and newer computers are going to be coming out with touch screens to work with the new interface. Why remove key hardware features from your users? >> >> I understand that there is going to be a testing phase to make sure that necessary software is functioning correctly but that shouldn't take more than a few weeks to test and verify. Otherwise you could choose to believe the PC vs Mac adds and think that Vista and Windows 7 where something to avoid. >> >> Most of us on this list are IT professionals, yet we there are a lot of us who are complacent with still using XP which is 11 years old now. If you are on an 11 year cycle then that means the last prior OS was probably Windows 3.0 released in 1990. Unless, somewhere in the last 11 years either your technical prowess plateaued or you've grown lazy. >> >> Sorry but the rest of the world is still moving and we don't get the luxury of camping out in this field. >> >> Josh >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Kwiatkowski, Nicholas [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:30 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone >> >> Dave, >> >> Microsoft offered a "downgrade" license for Vista to XP for a long time. They offered a downgrade license for W7 initially too (they may still do it). >> >> If you ordered a PC from Dell or HP you could order it with Windows XP up until a little while ago. I ordered a machine for our office about a year ago and still had XP pre-installed by Dell. I think what finally killed the XP pre-installs was that everything was going 64-bit, and memory requirements finally exceeded what the OS could handle. >> >> I would imagine that you can order Windows 7 pre-installed on a PC with a downgrade license for quite a while. Microsoft alluded that W7 was going to be another of their 'extended support releases', so this may be happening for a while. >> >> -Nick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David McFarlane [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 4:02 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone >> >> So, are folks really planning to keep ordering machines with Win7 instead of Win8 as long as possible, and then reformat Win8 machines to install Win7 after they can no longer buy machines with Win7? That's fine, but, depite an earlier comment, it does seem to involve a lot of "involuntary" action :). >> >> -- dkm >> >> >> At 8/6/2012 03:51 PM Monday, Gary Schrock wrote: >>> We were able to order machines with XP for a long time after Vista >>> came out, can't remember if it was all the way up until 7 came out or not. >>> Now, you couldn't walk into Best Buy and get a machine without Vista >>> (for that matter, I think the home stores of the various PC >>> manufactures didn't give the option, I think it was mainly their >>> business oriented stores). There were some laptops that I ran into >>> that were difficult to get drivers for XP, so that's really what to >>> me became the biggest issue. 7 ended up decent enough that one >>> didn't really need to avoid it. >>> >>> I'm guessing MS is going to get the same type of reaction from >>> businesses for Win8 as they did for Vista, and get forced to keep >>> Win >>> 7 around far longer than they might want to. >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 3:47 PM, David McFarlane <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> Indeed, but can we ever voluntarily opt out of eventually >>> deploying each new >>>> version of Windows? Especially when it becomes impossible to order >>>> new PCs without it? Did we succeed in voluntarily avoiding Vista, or 7? >>>> >>>> -- dkm >>>> >>>> >>>> At 8/6/2012 03:37 PM Monday, Jon Galbreath wrote: >>>>> It's a voluntary action to run the installer, so yes. >>>>> >>>>> Jon Galbreath, MCSE >>>>> Systems Administrator >>>>> International Studies and Programs >>>>> Helpdesk: 517-884-2148 >>>>> Ph: 517-884-2144 >>>>> [log in to unmask] >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: David McFarlane [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>>> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2012 3:24 PM >>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>> Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone >>>>> >>>>> But will we have any choice? Do we ever? >>>>> >>>>> -- dkm >>>>> (Sorry, late to the party, was gone on vacation) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 8/1/2012 03:10 PM Wednesday, Stehouwer, Matt wrote: >>>>>> I would have to 2nd that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Matt Stehouwer >>>>>> Technology Manager >>>>>> Michigan State University >>>>>> College of Natural Science Deans Office >>>>>> 288 Farm Lane RM 154 >>>>>> East Lansing, MI 48824 >>>>>> 517 355-9003 | Email: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Gary Schrock [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 2:41 PM >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> Subject: Re: [MSUNAG] Windows 8 Reaches RTM Milestone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Jon Galbreath <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>> TechNet and MSDN gets it Aug 15! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone planning to actually deploy this? >>>>>> The words "over my dead body" come to mind :). -- Oscar Castaņeda Remote Sensing & GIS Michigan State University