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This is a great discussion for us to be having - First, apologies to anyone if I get my facts a little wrong! Second: This is wordy, I know - this topic is one I find very interesting! Faculty with joint appointments and ability to supervise students in multiple departments is becoming more common, but how does a student interested in working with a joint-appointed faculty member decide which department to join? The lack of distinction between career paths might be true in other disciplines, but in geosciences I would caution that this is not the case. In the past 12 years there have been ~30 advertised geoscience education faculty positions that were filled, and the research- oriented ones hired PhDs in science, with a few exceptions. With only one exception that I know of (Iris Totten - she is a petroleum geologist with a doctorate in education), the geoscience ed RESEARCH faculty housed in geoscience departments all hold doctoral degrees in science. If we expand and look at faculty in non-research oriented positions housed in geoscience departments, then we have a few more people with doctorates in education, but not many. Of course, background is more than just the doctorate: I held a postdoc in science education (PhD in tectonics), and Karen McNeal's PhD is a unique combination of biogeochem and geoscience ed research. Some folks, like Joe Elkins, hold teaching certifications. There are a few places (Towson University, University of Arizona, James Madison, I think) that house science education faculty with education doctorates in science departments, but this is not the norm. A PhD awarded by a science department (for geocog/geoed research or other) is, for now, a must in getting a geoed research faculty position in a GEOLOGY department. The National Research Council hosted a discussion in 2005 that might be of interest: http://www7.nationalacademies.org/CFE/STEM_Disciplines_Agenda.html When we look at geoed researchers housed in EDUCATION departments, the story is flipped. These faculty almost all hold education doctorates, and many have requisite K-12 teaching experience (there were a couple of dissertations written on this topic, in fact). An exception, sort of: Heather Petcovic is tenure-home in a geology dept., earned a PhD in petrology, and does most of her work through an interdisciplinary institute. Her students earn MS in the disciplinary home and an education doctorate through the Malinson Institute. I also know that former NSF PFSMETE fellows (PhD in STEM, postdoc in science ed) were almost all unable to move into education colleges; most (not all, of course) who are in academia are housed in science departments or interdisciplinary institutes. The lack of an education doctorate, despite the postdoc, made getting a faculty position in an education college quite difficult. The story is more mixed for positions designed for places where science departments conduct pre-service and in-service teacher education. Some faculty are tenure-home in education and some are tenure-home in geology, and the tenure-home usually reflects the doctoral degree home. Personally, I think having these divides inhibits the exchange of ideas and sets up artificial barriers. Unfortunately, the realty is that if a student wants a career in academia (not the only career path!), then the choice of College for the doctoral degree will likely dictate where they can get a job in the future. I hope this will eventually change, and we can all do our part to help bring down these barriers. For now, I want to help inform prospective students about the choices they are going to need to be making early in their careers. If a student is interested in teaching teachers or working in an education college, I generally send them to colleagues in education programs. I have even encouraged a student to work in someone else's cognitive science program when I realized that my graduate program might not be the best choice for the student's career plans. Anyway, very windy, but this is a subject close to my academic-heart! Take care and Happy Holidays, Julie On Dec 30, 2008, at 10:55 AM, Tim Slater wrote: > Hi all! For us at Wyoming (and it was the same with the program we > built at > the University of Arizona where I just moved from), a distinction > between > college of science and college of education really didn't turn out > to be > very important. Some of the program faculty have joint or affiliated > faculty status in both colleges and can supervise students in either > college. The only real difference is which department students > choose to > take their qualifying examinations in as we have set it up with the > intetion > that our course requirements are pretty much the same. And, after > having > quite a few graduate students myself (and looking at the careers of my > graduate school peers from John Carpenter's University of South > Carolina > Geoscience Education Research Program), I don't really see substantial > evidence that these folks have actually ended up with different career > tracks as one might initially assume. IMHO, Tim > > University of Wyoming > Excellence in Higher Education Endowed > Professor of Science Education > Cognition in Astronomy, Physics, and Earth sciences Research (CAPER) > Team >> http://www.uwyo.edu/caper > > -----Original Message----- > From: GEOEDUCATION RESEARCH INTEREST GROUP > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stephen Reynolds > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 10:46 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Wyoming: List of MS or PhD programs in Geoscience > Education/Geocognition > > Julie: > > Yes, this distinction will be important for Arizona State too, since > we can > have students do a science-education research PhD in our own school > or in an > interdisciplinary program that is partly owned by the College of > Education > and partly owned by the Science and Math Schools. We do think these > people > will have slightly different career tracks. > > Steve > > > -----Original Message----- > From: GEOEDUCATION RESEARCH INTEREST GROUP > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julie Libarkin > Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 2:49 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Wyoming: List of MS or PhD programs in Geoscience > Education/Geocognition > > Tim and all: > > Tim's email raises a good question about the list of graduate programs > in geoeducation and geocognition. Should this list include Phd/EdD > programs in Education, such as Wyoming's, where there might be > opportunity to focus on the geosciences and collaborate with > geologists? I know of a couple dozen such programs - I'm thinking we > should have two lists: one where graduate programs/advisors would be > either housed in geoscience programs or joint between geoscience and > education/psychology; and a second where graduate programs/advisors > would be primarily in colleges of education. These represent two > different career trajectories, I think...What would be most helpful to > the community, and particularly to our prospective graduate students? > > This is a great opportunity to discuss! > > Also, Tim: Do you have a dual track at Wyoming where students can earn > a degree in Ed or in Geology/Geophysics? > > Happy Holidays, > > Julie > > > > On Dec 23, 2008, at 2:41 PM, Tim Slater wrote: > >> Dear Julie: Thanks so much for taking the time and effort to compile >> such a >> list. We would very much appreciate you including our brand new >> geocognition Ph.D. program on your list at the University of >> Wyoming. The >> program can be done in the College of Education and in a growing >> number of >> the Arts&Sciences Departments here at the Universityof Wyoming. >> >> >> University of Wyoming: Tim Slater, Jimm Myers >> >> >> Thanks! Tim Slater, [log in to unmask] >> University of Wyoming Excellence in Higher Education Endowed >> Professor of >> Science Education >> Cognition in Astronomy, Physics, and Earth sciences Research (CAPER) >> Team >> http://www.uwyo.edu/caper >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: GEOEDUCATION RESEARCH INTEREST GROUP >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julie Libarkin >> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 3:06 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: List of MS or PhD programs in Geoscience Education/ >> Geocognition >> >> All: >> >> I am compiling a list of MS or PhD programs in Geoscience Education >> or >> Geocognition to post on my website. I have a list, but I am not >> confident that the list is complete nor entirely accurate. I would >> appreciate it if you could email me if you have additions or >> corrections for this list. Some of these programs are housed in >> geoscience departments, some are housed in education departments, and >> some are in interdisciplinary institutes. I have not included >> programs >> that more broadly target earth/space/astronomy education on this >> specific list as lists of space/astronomy education programs exist >> elsewhere. I think the growth of graduate education opportunities in >> geosci ed/geocog over the past three years is amazing! Well done, >> everyone! >> >> Tentative List of Geoscience Education/Geocognition Programs >> *List may not be exhaustive >> >> MS only >> Northern Colorado University: Joe Elkins, Steve Anderson >> Kansas State University: Iris Totten >> >> MS or PhD (I think) >> Michigan State University: Julie Libarkin >> North Carolina State University: David McConnell >> Western Michigan University: Heather Petcovic >> Arizona State University: Steve Semken >> Purdue University: Eric Riggs, Dan Shepardson >> University of South Florida: Jeff Ryan, Len Vacher >> Texas A&M: Bruce Herbert >> University of Akron: David Steer >> >> Take care and Happy Holidays! >> Julie >> >> Julie Libarkin >> Assistant Professor, Director - Geocognition Research Lab >> Dept. of Geological Sciences & Division of Science and Math Education >> Michigan State University >> 206 Natural Science >> East Lansing, MI 48824 >> 517-355-8369 >> > > Julie Libarkin > Assistant Professor, Director - Geocognition Research Lab > Dept. of Geological Sciences & Division of Science and Math Education > Michigan State University > 206 Natural Science > East Lansing, MI 48824 > 517-355-8369 > Julie Libarkin Assistant Professor, Director - Geocognition Research Lab Dept. of Geological Sciences & Division of Science and Math Education Michigan State University 206 Natural Science East Lansing, MI 48824 517-355-8369