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I don't know how this discussion track morphed into OGM bashing but I would like to add some comments. For many years OGM was a wonderful organization. Depending on the chapter, of course, members were willing to share knowledge and even markets with newcomers, and it was entirely through these meetings and discussions that some of us made the decision to transition to organic and get certified. There were always some members who were reluctant to share and a few who were downright hostile to new farmers and outsiders. There were some chapters that had few meetings, so not a lot of sharing. They existed mainly to get members in the area certified because at the time all certifications were chapter based. There was also a chapter apparently formed with some serious flaws and used for personal reasons of a small group of growers. Rumors about what that chapter actually did came to us at the time they disbanded, but could not be adequately investigated by OGM. The way that particular chapter treated growers not part of their "in group" was not good, but please don't judge the whole of OGM by that. It was never true of all chapters. OFPA and NOP are what changed OGM. Certification became the only focus because there was no time and energy left after dealing with the changes wrought by government involvement. While I understand the need for a uniform standard for organic production, the process of getting that standard was difficult for all of us, and the final result - not to mention changes to it that keep cropping up since - was less than ideal. Organic became politics and we all have different political opinions. That's what it boils down to. Just as some individuals opt out of other government processes and services, some growers have opted out of the NOP organic certification process. The reasons are political and philosophical, personal and religious. But we still live in America, by gosh, so they have that right. It is not really our place to criticize that decision, as it is not for us to criticize religious decisions. They also have the right to establish an alternative system to recognize the way they farm. Certified Naturally Grown came to be for that reason. As it is now, it functions the way much organic certification did 25 - 30 years ago. And yes, it is a lesser inspection and certification process; and yes, there is misuse and fraud going on within it. But I've got news for you all: There is a great deal of misuse and fraud going on in the NOP's organic certification system also! Our farm has maintained organic certification consistently since we began it 19 years ago. It has changed a lot, continues to change every year and boy, does it cost a lot more. But in order to sell organic field crops we have to be part of that system. If we were only producing crops for direct sale, we might feel differently about certification, might even opt for something like CNG. The local vs organic debate will no doubt continue for some time. I like to hope that local organic will win out over California organic and international organic and China organic. Some means to differentiate the local organic is needed. Some means is needed to differentiate not certified organic but grown to a high standard local produce from run of the mill conventional locally produced produce. We gain nothing by bickering with each other over this. We have a lot to gain by working together as we used to. All that energy that once went into arguing about changes in organic standards could go into creating an additional "system" that promotes local organic and maybe also local ecological for farms that choose not to be part of the NOP. Pat Whetham ************************************** AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at http://www.aol.com. If you would like to access previous postings to the Mich-Organic listserv you can copy and paste the following URL into your browser address bar http://list.msu.edu/archives/mich-organic.html