On Wednesday 17 September 2008 18:43:28 Joseph Michael Scott wrote:
> Ok, sorry the last post was perhaps a rant that was hard to follow, so let
> me take a chance at clearing things up, or at least in regards to Mr.
> Andre's questions/comments.
>
> "The days of free speech are over? What are you saying?"
>
> Simply that. What I have over and over in not only these posts, but from
> personal experience, is that MSU as whole puts on this presade that working
> for a university is vastly different than working for a private company. I
> highly beg to differ on this. Why? Let me ask you a few questions;
>
> 1. Does MSU as a whole have a product they produce?
>
> You get your booty they do! They produce highly professional and educated
> (hopefully!) individuals for todays current workplace.
>
> 2. Does MSU charge for thier services?
>
> In one word, yes. Although they are not the highest (close) or lowest
> charging university, they still do require a fee (from either the student
> or a grant or whomever) to attend their classes.
>
> 3. Is there another place that provides the same services as MSU?
>
> Yes...sorry, not going to provide a total list.
>
>
> Ok, so you produce a product you charge for and you compete against others
> for this right. Sorry, but any organization who does that is a BUSINESS.
> Since MSU is a business, then shouldn't they actuall think about perhaps
> acting like a business? Any data that flows across any companies network is
> considered business property, and as such is not subject to any free
> speech/freedom of information rules. MSU needs to stop fighting against the
> idea they are a business, and think about how they could improve thier
> instituion by being one.
I am completely mystified how the concept of being a business (or
not) has to do with free speech. Or how its over.
>
> "Whenever that rule existed, it isn't here now, and hasn't been since
> 9/1996 when I started here."
>
> I started working for MSU in 2000 and when I attempted to bring in a vendor
> to protect our 2000 AD network via a firewall, I was told by my superiors,
> whom went to campus networking, that I would have to get an written
> approval from the provost BEFORE I institued the firewall. In order to get
> that approval I had to attend a meeting with campus (and I am sorry, but I
> honestly cannot remember the name of the organization back then) whom told
> me that they FROWNED upon my descision as it would be in front of my SMTP
> route out and that it could potentially be used to monitor email traffic.
> They suggested I find another approach, and would 'inform the provost' or
> thier ruling. I was straight out of the corporate environment at the time,
> and let me tell you my boss had to almost physically restrain me from
> throttling the folks across the table from me. Oh and when I mentioned
> hippy, well...the guys were either wearing dickies or (and I kid you not
> here) tye died t-shirts, and there wasn't a single person who DIDN'T look
> past the age of 65.
I installed a firewall in 2003 for Political Science. I never heard of what
you are saying, but in any case thats gone now. I never heard of anyone
saying anti-virus software was not appropriate, either. But that is in
the past now, isn't it?
Your comment about age is ridiculous, not to mention demeaning. We
are all aging at the rate of one second per second...
>
> "MS isn't run by satan, but neither does it code well. THAT is my
> concern."
>
> Uhmm..no offense, but your telling me that YOU all code better? Or perhaps
> that some home baked company codes better? Look, ANY code can get
Yes, actually I can code better than a lot of people. The main thing--really
the very most important thing in software development--is understanding
what you are using, and for example knowing the API of functions you are
using, such that you don't build in the possibility of buffer/heap/integer
overflows. That and of course, an idea of what it is that you're supposed
to do. THAT was something I almost never had in the "real world".
I'm an open-source person. Yes, the quality of the code ranges from
horrid to heavenly, but a lot of that code is quite good, and the op system
I use for things, OpenBSD, is superb. Take a look at the number of viri
for it. Look for the number of trojans and other malware. Google for
them.
> cracked/hacked/whatever. I would expect this group more than a lot of
> others, to understand that given enough time/reason, nothing is secure. The
> major difference is what the person/company can do for a business AFTER it
> gets cracked. Or after it breaks. Or after it melts. THAT is what Microsoft
> provides that you seem that you want to ignore. To this day I use/have used
> a lot of good free, or homegrown products, however I also understand when I
> use them it is a 'good luck with this use'. Let me point out again that MSU
> is a business, and as such cannot, nor should it even desire, a product
> that support is based upon a small group of coders working on a limited
> budget. MSU needs to act like a business and DEMAND they have business
> level software and support.
I'm almost laughing, here. MS has spend hundreds of days fixing various
problems, and has spent many hours refixing problems (ala rpc stuff), so
you can't say, you REALLY can't say that MS does a good job of fixing things.
The world I'm in is more chaotic, I'll grant that. But if 37 people come up
with a fix to some problem because they can see the code and propose
fixes for it, thats a win. Thats a huge win.
What you aren't getting is that the "small group of coders" has a lot of
others around it, and fixes for things typically come up very quickly. You
are completely ignorant of this, judging by what you've written. Is it
perfect? No. Does it cause problems? It can. But having the ability to
SEE what the problem is, to be able to look at a piece of code and at least
identify the problem is powerful.
But really, I am going off on a tangent. You are saying that MSU shouldn't
use "non business" software, and I completely disagree. I think MSU
should use software appropriate for itself, and that often (some might even
say usually) includes open source packages.
>
> "I'm really puzzled at what you are saying. MSU is not a centralized IT
> structure, and I think thats a good thing. MSU provides a lot of services
> that work pretty well, but if a department wants to do otherwise, it can.
> How can that be improved on? This provides choice."
>
> Actually, what you are suggesting works well when you are talking about
> companies competing against each other. Nothing produces a lower priced,
> better quality product than competition. However, MUS is NOT made up of
> multiple little companies, each with a different goal. And honestly, until
> MSU stops thinking about itself as such, it is doomed to being viewed as
> the 'other choice' university. Each and every department in MSU needs to
> honestly think about HOW they get their money (well, shy of
> athletics..another rant..sorry)...tuition. In essance, if you want to keep
> your department running (and thier job), then they need to think about how
> they contribute to actually getting a student to want to attend MSU. As a
> father of two children entering that age frame, I have found out the
> weakness of teen-agers/children/college kids...the path of least
> resistance. Make it look fun, and make it beyond easy to do and they won't
> blink and eye thinking about doing it, in fact make it look REALLY good and
> easy and they will ASK you to let them do it. The whole departmentalism
> thing at MSU works totally against that. Tell a kid he has three different
> email platforms, or that he cannot check his buds calendar becuase he is in
> a different college, and give them some BLAH interface to get their
> information (one they feel embarrased to show the cute girl back home), and
> guess what they will think? Provide them with a single point of interface
> to get information about class/buddies/events/etc. and make it look snazzy
> and they will brag to thier little brothers, and their friend, etc. That
> will get the campus name at least on thier minds when they think about
> going to college.
Again, I utterly fail to see your analogy. Or rather, I think you raise
the importantce of the technology used to that of making or braking MSU.
While I think its very important, I hold the perhaps quaint view that it is
the people at this institution that matter the most.
>
> Look, this post is probably waaay to long, so I apologize, for not only
> this, but the rant. All I want is the freaking place I consider home to my
> favorite people and sports teams, to be a place I would be proud to send my
> kids to (now on my dime)!
It isn't that its too long, its that I'm not understanding a lot of what
you're saying.
--STeve Andre'
Political Science
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