In my opinion, this discussion is missing the forest for the trees! As we will all have to face the reality of climate change and the results of the long time abuse of fossil fuels, can we not set aside all of this hair splitting about certification and look at the reality that we are all facing? One big thing I have noticed at the organic groups is the farmers are getting quite old!!! Please THINK about- what is this all doing to mentor younger people in our region to grow good food for our communities? Who in my community can I help to make true change by educating them and providing food that has not travelled a thousand miles? What can I do to really implement change in our food system? I went to my local grocery store, they are starting to carry some organic veggies, and I was astounded to see that there were certified organic tomatoes from, no not California, no not Florida, no not even Mexico, but Israel!!! No footprint on the environment there, eh? So is it really important who did what in the past? The reality is that this last year our country became a net importer of food for the first time in our history! These are the issues that I would hope that the organic/sustainable community can tackle to make real, meaningful change. Instead of organic versus local, or organic versus anything, can we set aside our differences to make that change? Cindy ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Moses To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Local vs organic Hello All-- When I put in my 2 cents about Naturally Grown I had no idea it would lead to this. I must assume that some of the puss demonstrated in these e-mails is evidence of some infection that needs a little healing. As nasty as some of the finger pointing and name calling can be it is a sign that there are things that need addressing. Sometimes I wish I could just join another species but I guess I am stuck with this one. And let me say that I am not immune to finger pointing and that I will no doubt do some before I am through. Although some of what Cindy says is counter-productive, her basic question is a good one. Why is there no state wide organization to advance the interests of those farmers who are not "on the reservation"? I believe that one of the main reasons that this is true does not involve any ones failure or arrogance but stems from a basic fact that Michigan is a large state. It is easy to be envious of the level of organization in the New England states, but I am convinced that this is true at least in part because of their size. OGM never was a state wide organization in a real sense because of that. I personally have no idea how to get around that basic fact. Maybe we all should accept that and work in our own smaller areas as John and Cindy have done and as Pat points out has had some degree of success in the past. In any case, if you have no idea how to address this problem, please refrain from calling others names until you have attempted to come up with an answer. A second problem is our lack of numbers. As OGM and other organizations attempted to operate a state-wide organization in a physically large state the demands of travel fell on a small number of individuals. Some people carrying a big part of the load is common in any organization, long distances and small numbers of people make it worse. How do we solve that? I could speculate that our small numbers are for any number of reasons. I could point to our tendency to fracture over any issue that comes along because that is our history. I could point to an Uncooperative Extension system that is, in my experience, adversarial beyond what I hear from farmers in other states. Both of these things are true but I see them as symptoms and not causes. This is where I want to do my finger pointing. I wish our problems were as simple as the "nationalization" of organic by the NOP. That has created problems and I have no quarrel with those like the Dutchers who have chosen to stand aside and direct market based on their own reputation, which I know to be a good one. But all our problems do not come from Washington D. C. We have many other enemies, and I do nor use that word lightly. And we should be proud that we do, damn proud. While we may see ourselves as disorganized, under capitalized, runt fleas on the tail of the dog, the tide of events is on our side. Even in our pitiful state of disorganization we have put fear into our enemies, and growing numbers seek us out to be our customers.. Because of this, our growing traction, we have become targets for enemies not just in Washington D. C. but in Lansing, East Lansing and Battle Creek. The governmental agencies and the non-profits that are controlled by the old system are not our friends. We can never expect that their "help" will come without a price. As I started all this, I wanted to say that the price of accepting the "help" of Naturally Grown and Farm Certified is that you have to accept lying to your customers. We have moved on to bigger subjects and more important ones. Do we have any answers to the problems of trying to build state-wide organizations? For myself, I do not know what those answers are. Let me ask another question. What would we do if we could form such a group? Do any of us believe that we can influence the direction of the state of Michigan or the land grant college? We can dream of this but are these dreams realistic at this time? Are we so insecure that we think that we need their sanction? What we can do is work in our own neighborhoods to build local infrastructure much as Cindy Dutcher describes. But I disagree with some of what she says about the NOP, and I disagreed with some of you about the NOP in the beginning(I liked Jim Riddle's American Organic Standard) and I disagreed with the Michigan Organic Law and on and on and on. That does not mean that I have not noticed those things about which we agree. Are our differences of opinion as difficult and unchangeable as driving back and forth from say the Keewanau to meetings in Grand Rapids. If they are THEN HEAVEN HELP US. The free ride from the Old Energy is coming to an end. The Earth Changes are coming to teach us that our little tribal wars and petty feuds are stupid and self defeating. I know that I have bumped heads with many who will read this and if I have not I may in the future. All I need to get beyond that is to see you as my neighbor. Right now my neighborhood is shrinking as I apply myself closer to home. But the enemy is the same everywhere and as we battle for our Home we should be shoulder to shoulder. Blessings and Balance Jim Moses Pat Whethan <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I don't know how this discussion track morphed into OGM bashing but I would like to add some comments. For many years OGM was a wonderful organization. Depending on the chapter, of course, members were willing to share knowledge and even markets with newcomers, and it was entirely through these meetings and discussions that some of us made the decision to transition to organic and get certified. There were always some members who were reluctant to share and a few who were downright hostile to new farmers and outsiders. There were some chapters that had few meetings, so not a lot of sharing. They existed mainly to get members in the area certified because at the time all certifications were chapter based. There was also a chapter apparently formed with some serious flaws and used for personal reasons of a small group of growers. Rumors about what that chapter actually did came to us at the time they disbanded, but could not be adequately investigated by OGM. The way that particular chapter treated growers not part of their "in group" was not good, but please don't judge the whole of OGM by that. It was never true of all chapters. OFPA and NOP are what changed OGM. Certification became the only focus because there was no time and energy left after dealing with the changes wrought by government involvement. While I understand the need for a uniform standard for organic production, the process of getting that standard was difficult for all of us, and the final result - not to mention changes to it that keep cropping up since - was less than ideal. Organic became politics and we all have different political opinions. That's what it boils down to. Just as some individuals opt out of other government processes and services, some growers have opted out of the NOP organic certification process. The reasons are political and philosophical, personal and religious. But we still live in America, by gosh, so they have that right. It is not really our place to criticize that decision, as it is not for us to criticize religious decisions. They also have the right to establish an alternative system to recognize the way they farm. Certified Naturally Grown came to be for that reason. As it is now, it functions the way much organic certification did 25 - 30 years ago. And yes, it is a lesser inspection and certification process; and yes, there is misuse and fraud going on within it. But I've got news for you all: There is a great deal of misuse and fraud going on in the NOP's organic certification system also! Our farm has maintained organic certification consistently since we began it 19 years ago. It has changed a lot, continues to change every year and boy, does it cost a lot more. But in order to sell organic field crops we have to be part of that system. If we were only producing crops for direct sale, we might feel differently about certification, might even opt for something like CNG. The local vs organic debate will no doubt continue for some time. I like to hope that local organic will win out over California organic and international organic and China organic. Some means to differentiate the local organic is needed. Some means is needed to differentiate not certified organic but grown to a high standard local produce from run of the mill conventional locally produced produce. We gain nothing by bickering with each other over this. We have a lot to gain by working together as we used to. All that energy that once went into arguing about changes in organic standards could go into creating an additional "system" that promotes local organic and maybe also local ecological for farms that choose not to be part of the NOP. Pat Whetham ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. If you would like to access a searchable archive of the all the previous Mich-Organic listserv postings copy this URL and paste in your browser address field http://list.msu.edu/archives/mich-organic.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. If you would like to access a searchable archive of the all the previous Mich-Organic listserv postings copy this URL and paste in your browser address field http://list.msu.edu/archives/mich-organic.html If you would like to access previous postings to the Mich-Organic listserv you can copy and paste the following URL into your browser address bar http://list.msu.edu/archives/mich-organic.html